Are Rogues Good In Tbc

Bob Roberts
• Thursday, 03 December, 2020
• 17 min read

Tough choice, still 1-2 years on deciding for TBC class Pretty sure MANA tap and arcane torrent both interacted with energy.

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Also, I don’t believe you’d have shadow step with a mace stun PVP build. Watching tier lists on YouTube, all says rogues are useless in TBC EVE until later gear phases.

Maybe it’ll be different because their data from private servers and Blizzard just doing their own thing. On top of that rogues offer nothing to the raid in the form of buffs.

I don’t want to play caster classes or even use MANA in TBC, and self can’t be warriors =_= Until Blizzard announces the difficulty of BC I wouldn’t even worry about which classes are better.

I’d worry more about how you’re going to split up your 40 man raid roster than what classes are going to be better. Blue face: Pretty sure MANA tap and arcane torrent both interacted with energy.

They revamped it a lot over the course of retail, but I think it was MANA specific in TBC, and then they added in energy and rage when BE's got warriors. TBC isn't theory crafted and optimized to the same degree due to the lack of top tier private servers.

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The issue is that DPs among the classes are much more balanced than classic and mechanics in TBC are much more punishing for melee. Rogues also don’t provide a ton of utility beyond one, so raids aren’t going to want to bring a lot.

MANA tap creates a stacking buff, up to 3, each time you use it. Arcane torrent consumes the stacks to restore MANA/energy, on top of the silence.

I want a fast pace DPs class that is good at PVP and can raid decently I would either be going for feral or sub I am alliance and if I go rogue IDK the race what class is better for the long run Like bottom tier usefulness, just a tiny bit above Alliance retries.

Rogue is strong on arenas, but you’re going to have a hard time finding raid spots. Generally 1-2 spots for feral druids in raids, depending on comp, 1 of which will likely purely be tanking, the other a mix of tanking and DPs, stuck in the melee group for the buff.

Just don't get into a sweaty class stacking hardcore guild, and you are fine. Just play what you want, don’t look at parses and being the top DPs in the world, that isn’t important.

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It’s very probable that people from min-max culture would discourage you from playing certain classes, because they don’t hit the top. Nah, even in semi-hardcore guilds you shouldn’t have the issue of finding a spot in raid.

It reminds me, when before classic people was saying hunter sucks, will have the problem with finding raid spot and will be used only for trans shot. So… don’t listen the voices, which attempts to persuade to not pick certain class.

Harris: ok then what is good and I've got a raid slot anyways no matter what class I am as long as I am DPs and I'm not a huge fan of casters as I find the spell casting boring I would probably say: If you want to be a hardcore winemaker realm first/world first type player, I don’t think you have a huge shot with druid or rogue, but what do I know… I am a pretty big noob.

Village: It reminds me, when before classic people was saying hunter sucks, will have the problem with finding raid spot and will be used only for trans shot. If you do not follow these guidelines, the DPS optimizations in the remainder of this article will be of little worth to you.

One of the advantages rogues have over other melee DPS classes is a high degree of survivability. Putting Sprint, Evasion, Vanish, and Cloak of Shadows to rigorous use separates goo drogues from those who spend most of the fight eating cobblestone.

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Cloak of Shadows, for example, should be used as much as possible to negate incoming magic damage and harmful rebuffs. Evasion is much more situational; however, it can and should be used where possible, since most raid targets are likely to kill you if they land a melee swing.

It may also be used to escape AOE effects, or to cross any distance quickly to accomplish a non-DPS objective. In general, save Vanish from the start of the fight until you have very nearly surpassed the tank’s threat, then use it.

Provided your tank’s threat is reasonably good, this will usually enable you to go the rest of the fight with no concerns, or at least until Vanish comes back off cooldown. Also note that Sprint and Vanish can both act as snare/root breakers, depending on your talent build, and can be quite handy for this purpose on trash as well as bosses with snare abilities.

A common mistake made by novice rogues is not putting cooldown-based abilities to regular use. If you are in combat, there is no reason to have any offensive ability off cooldown unless you know you would be fighting a boss before it cooled down.

Blade Flurry, Cold Blood, and Adrenaline Rush should be used as often as possible, along with any other offensive cooldowns you may have, including Blood Fury/Breaking/Arcane Torrent (making sure to MANA Tap as often as possible), trinkets, and for bosses, and . Finally, using any other stat-based cooldown (attack power or armor penetration, for example) will provide greater total damage while haste effects are active than it would normally.

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Note that if you know the length of a fight beforehand, in particular for combat, and the number of Blood lusts/Heroism you will be receiving and when, you can sometimes plan better usage of your cooldowns. The most notable example of this is Brutally, which will last very close to 6 minutes until your guild obtains a fair amount of Unwell loot.

Based on the 6-minute duration, you know that you can use Blade Flurry/Blood Fury/ / each three times, Breaking/Cold Blood/ twice, and Adrenaline Rush/ twice. Thus, you should plan in advance exactly when you will receive any Blood lusts/Heroism (no closer than 2 minutes together) and synchronize your usage of cooldowns as much as possible within the available time.

Finally, a note regarding and . Alternatively, you may save your cooldown to have available in case of an energy deficit in your ability cycle.

Proper energy management means the difference between 100% Slice and Dice uptime and letting it drop for 2-3 seconds every cycle. There are several basic tactics to keep in mind, and then there are some more advanced techniques which you can work in on more DPS-sensitive fights.

Pooling at this time effectively gives you more energy to spend on the next iteration of your cycle. By pooling energy between Sinister Strikes (or other primary attack), one can wait until some number of props occur (typically double Lightning Speed props) and unleash the energy at once.

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Of final note is , which instantly regenerates 40 energy for a level 70 rogue. However, another important aspect of this consumable is that it provides some extra breathing room to compensate for an absence of props (notably Combat Potency for combat rogues and Seal Fate for Mutilate rogues).

A well-designed user interface will greatly assist a rogue in following the advice given in this section. While the default user interface may suffice, it is usually necessary to utilize external add-ons to provide the information you need to quickly make the correct decision during combat.

In some cases, such as your health and energy totals, the default user interface displays information in an inconvenient location. In other cases, such as your current threat level, the information simply isn’t available through the default interface.

In addition, to help with cycles and energy pooling, you should also have timers for your buffs (Slice and Dice as well as various props) and for rebuffs on the target, preferably displaying precision to tenths of a second. It may also help to have more general raid information displayed, such as unit frames, boss mods, and the like.

Knowing your enemy is a vital aspect of playing any class, be it in raiding or in PVP. First and foremost, you have the highest chance to survive whatever a boss will throw at you if you know what to expect before the pull.

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If the information is available to you, research the boss and find out what attacks it can use to kill you, and which ones other rogues recommend you to cloak. Know whether there will be any abilities that require you to suddenly move out of melee range for a short or long period of time, so that you can prepare your cooldowns and alter your cycle accordingly.

Beyond mere DPS optimization, if you know the encounter beforehand, you give yourself a leg up learning it in person. A few seconds of lost DPS will not usually mean the difference between a wipe and a kill, but forgetting to run away from the raid when Grand Warlock Actress targets you with Conflagration will definitely wipe the raid.

Due to limited itemization, physical DPS stats on the weapon are not usually an important consideration. Also, human rogues have good reason to feel constrained to either swords or maces, as their racial provides a substantial damage boost while using those weapon types.

Typically, an off hand sword will perform on par with other weapon types of up to two itemization tiers higher. Also, Mutilate builds defy the above rules, since your off hand is also used for special attacks.

In general, the damage increase gained from using a “slow” off hand dagger with Mutilate is offset by the loss of poison props. Thus, the prime concerns for a Mutilate off hand dagger are weapon DPS and stats.

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Sword/sword, fist/sword, and mace/sword builds are all within roughly 1% of one another in terms of theoretical DPS output, assuming equivalent weapons. While the Hemorrhage rebuff will provide a decent benefit to raid DPS (on the order of 100), it scales poorly.

For raid DPS, the two most important talents in any tree are Relentless Strikes and Dual Wield Specialization. Any Eve build should start with the same initial point spread in Assassination: Malice, Ruthlessness, and Relentless Strikes (with Puncturing Wounds if applicable).

Spend any remaining talent points in Lethality, then Murder, then Vile Poisons. For combat builds, the mandatory talents are Improved Slice and Dice, Blade Flurry, Weapon Expertise, Aggression, Adrenaline Rush, Combat Potency, and Surprise Attacks, as well as the appropriate weapon specialization(s).

Keep in mind when looking at these samples which talents are required (the remainder are usually considered to be up to taste). Please note that the following types of builds are established to be inferior for raid DPS: 30/x/x, x/x/41, 0/x/x.

Because of these interactions, it becomes very complicated to evaluate a piece of gear in a vacuum (i.e. with no assumptions about the rogue’s stats before the item). Three notable rogue spreadsheets exist which can be used to roughly calculate DPS output given a set of gear, talents, and buffs.

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Thus, using one’s current gear setup as a base, one may swap in various potential replacement items and see how much DPS increases. For those who cannot, for whatever reason, make a direct spreadsheet comparison, we present a system to compare arbitrary pieces of gear, which we will call Equivalence Points (EP).

We will start by defining 1 AP = 1 EP; that is to say that 1 attack power provides exactly 1 Equivalence Point. Now, to flesh out the system, we must figure out how much DPS a single point of attack power provides.

Then, we assign each other stat a weight in EP proportional to its DPS contribution relative to a single point of attack power. Note that all EP weights assume the following set of buffs: Leader of the Pack, 5/5 Mark of the Wild, Faerie Fire, Mangle, 5/5 Hunter’s Mark, 0/5 Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, Bloodlust/Heroism, 2/2 Strength of Earth Totem, 2/2 Wind fury Totem, Unleashed Rage, Curse of Recklessness, Sunder Armor, 5/5 Battle Shout, Flask of Relentless Assault, and Spicy Hot Album.

If you raid with more, fewer, or otherwise different buffs, consult the Gear Spreadsheet to obtain more accurate personalized EP weights. Prepaid EP Swords Fist/Sword Fists Mutilate Daggers Strength1. Rating2. Rating1.671.621.611.631.56Expertise Rating2.482.352.262.152.38Haste Rating2. Penetration0. Gem64.2769.7171.4096.7388.14 These weights assume your average gear level consists of Marathon, Gruel’s Lair, and Magtheridon’s Lair drops, as well as pre-2.3 badge gear.

Tier 4 EP Swords Fist/Sword Fists Mutilate Daggers Strength1. Rating2.362.232.131.962.24Crit Rating1.691.641.621.681.60Expertise Rating2.552.432.322.282.49Haste Rating2. Penetration0. Gem64.7370.1171.8295.5089.87These weights assume your average gear level consists of Zulu’Man, Serpent shrine Cavern, and Tempest Keep drops, as well as 2.3 badge gear. Tier 5 EP Swords Fist/Sword Fists Mutilate Daggers Strength1. Rating2.422.292.181.902.30Crit Rating1.721.671.651.781.61Expertise Rating2.652.522.412.322.56Haste Rating2. Penetration0.300.300.300.320.33Meta Gem77.8883.0984.74110.56102.07 These weights assume your average gear level consists of Heal Summit and Black Temple drops, as well as 2.4 badge gear.

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Tier 6 EP Swords Fist/Sword Fists Mutilate Daggers Strength1. Rating2.442.312.191.962.32Crit Rating1.761.711.701.711.64Expertise Rating2.662.532.422.272.59Haste Rating2. Penetration0.340.340.340.340.36Meta Gem83.4888.8590.56115.68107.52 These weights assume your average gear level consists of Unwell trash and boss drops and crafted gear. Such a small difference based on EP weighting indicates that you should check a spreadsheet for an exact valuation.

First, obviously, is the DPS gain caused by the 12 agility and 3% increased critical strike damage on the gem. Second, less obviously, is the loss in stats caused by having to use two blue gems somewhere on your gear.

It is impossible to know beforehand which items with blue sockets you will use to meet the meta gem requirement. If your hit rating EP weight is higher than your agility EP weight (typically for combat builds), then you should do this by using in yellow sockets and in red sockets.

If your agility EP weight is higher (typically for Mutilate and Hero builds), you should use in yellow sockets and in red sockets. Note that epic gems are only available for purchase via badges once the Isle of Fuel’Dana has been fully opened on your realm.

Of special note for combat builds is that by the end of Unwell gearing, you are very likely to surpass the hit cap following the given lemming strategy. The PVP and jewel crafting gems listed below are also unique-equip (except purchased from arena points), meaning you may only wear one at a time in any given set of gear.

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Finally, note that the following gems are strictly inferior to available alternatives, and should not be used for any Eve build: The term “cap” refers to a point at which the value of a particular stat changes greatly.

The hit cap refers to the point at which you have enough hit rating not to miss an attack, and the expertise cap refers to the point at which you have enough expertise rating not to be dodged. For obvious reasons, hit or expertise rating beyond its respective cap is worth zero DPS value.

Thus, we can calculate the hit caps for special and white attacks for various mob levels (assuming 5/5 Precision in all cases): Thus, exceeding the level 70-72 hit caps may be detrimental to your DPS output in these situations.

Finally, there are NO SPECIAL THRESHOLDS where the value of hit or expertise rating changes dramatically other than these caps. The is a potent trinket that scales well with other gear upgrades, typically retaining its status as best-in-slot for combat builds from T4 all the way through T6.

The result is that, as haste rating on gear becomes more prevalent, the Trophy’s pro closes value relative to equivalent amounts of other stats. By the end of Unwell, certain combinations of gear result in the Trophy falling behind other trinkets.

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Particularly, human rogues wielding swords or maces with Weapon Expertise will reach the cap simply by equipping the Shard. Consult the spreadsheet to determine which expertise item(s) are best for you to equip in comparison with the alternatives available to you.

In some cases this waste of expertise is worthwhile due the superiority of the Shard over other trinkets. However, this rule of thumb does not necessarily apply to other pieces of gear with expertise and their respective alternatives.

The is worthy of special mention because its pro’s power can be somewhat controlled through appropriate timing of finisher usage. Specifically, by delaying usage of each finisher until your energy is nearly full (see the Rogue Play Skills section for more on this technique, called “energy pooling”), it is possible to have the Talisman’s pro last until you’ve generated all or almost all the combo points for your next finisher.

This effect enables the Talisman to reach slightly greater performance in reality than theoretical models indicate. For a combat build at most gear levels, this places the Talisman above and for situations where you can focus on optimal energy pooling.

Although its power scales back somewhat against high armor (7685) bosses, it also scales with your gear level, to the point that when you reach the end of Unwell, it may well be superior to the or . Executioner is also a strong enchant, and eventually does out-scale Mongoose by a very slight amount towards the end of Unwell.

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It is worth mentioning that although two weapons with Mongoose may pro separate Lightning Speed buffs (for a total of 240 agility and two 2% hastes), two weapons with Executioner may only pro and refresh a single Executioner buff. To start with, for Surefooted to be as good as Dexterity, your EP value for hit rating must be 20% higher than that for agility.

For a Mutilate build, this enchants is obviously not worthwhile, as it does not stack with Fleet Footed. Thus, in a fight where you spend roughly 2 or more seconds moving per minute, Cat’s Swiftness comes out ahead given these DPS values.

In addition to increased DPS in movement-oriented fights, Cat’s Swiftness also provides a slight advantage over Dexterity or Surefooted for non-Mutilate builds in terms of survivability. Particularly, in fights with AOE effects or other attacks that require quick movement, Cat’s Swiftness enhances your reactions enough to be considered worthwhile even if it causes a theoretical DPS loss.

For most rogues, the biggest group-based buffs are Wind fury Totem, Unleashed Rage, and Battle Shout. Thus, an enhancement shaman and a DPS warrior are considered irreplaceable members of a raid melee group including any number of rogues.

However, melee groups incorporating a feral druid or RET paladin in addition to the shaman and DPS warrior are not entirely uncommon. The most critical boss rebuffs are generally those affecting the boss’s armor: Sunder Armor in particular is completely indispensable, but Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness are also very important and should be kept up unless it is completely infeasible to do so.

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The net effect on his TPS will be a reduction of roughly 100, usually precluding usage of Expose Armor. However, if your tank is not a warrior, then it is a net raid DPS gain for one rogue to switch to a cycle incorporating Improved Expose Armor rather than having a DPS warrior apply to Sunder Armor.

If the raid has fewer than 3 paladins, then prioritize blessings in the order Salvation > Might > Kings. and both share cooldowns with hearthstones, but may be used as an additional way to increase DPS (see the Rogue Play Skills section for more on ).

Proper gear and gem selections are critical, but nearly half of your total damage stems from raid buffs. Keep this in mind when attempting to compare yourself to other rogues in your raid or in other guilds via WoW Web Stats or other methods.

This is important because when you have a 5-stack of Deadly Poison on a target, and it falls off, you suffer a damage cost based on the amount of time it takes to refresh the stack. This technique is not currently well-modeled, therefore it is difficult to say whether Shipping to save your DP stack is a DPS loss or gain.

As with other precise DPS techniques, it may not be worthwhile to attempt this tactic during an encounter that isn’t specifically DPS-focused. With Mangle present on the mob, the CRT levels required for Eviscerate to surpass Rupture are unrealistic at best.

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Without Mangle, it’s reasonable for Eviscerate to surpass Rupture in damage done by the ability itself, but Rupture’s lower energy cost means more energy to spend on combo point builders, meaning a slight increase in effective damage. Thus, for most builds the best use of Eviscerate is only when you have an excess of combo points with both Slice and Rupture already active.

A combo point cycle is a fixed ordering of ability and finisher usage used to maintain 100% Slice uptime in conjunction with as high Rupture uptime as possible and as much energy return from Relentless Strikes as these constraints allow. Note that all combo point cycles are guidelines, not hard and fast rules.

In other words, stick to your cycle as long as it won’t force you to deviate from the guidelines given above. This matters most typically for rogues with Combat Potency, as depending on the speed of your off hand weapon and your hit and expertise rating, you may need to use more or fewer CP on Slice to sustain it.

However, the spreadsheet recommendation also accommodates your exact gear and raid buffs, and therefore should be used over general guidelines such as these. Slight differences in hit rating and off hand speed matter quite a bit for these cycles.

Sinister Strike-based rogues are best suited for the task of keeping Improved Expose Armor up; the cycle to use for this purpose is always 5s/5a. A Mutilate rogue may sustain 100% Slice and 100% 5-CP Expose Armor uptime using 3-5s/5a.

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Gear and talents both play major roles in total DPS output, but proper ability usage and raid buffs are of even greater import. Consult the corresponding sections in the rest of the article to learn how to make sure the rogue is geared and specked correctly.

Note that many fights have interruptions or phases which may result in Slice falling off and unavoidably needing to be refreshed. Unless the target is immune to poisons, or the rogue is Mutilated and has T5 4pc, Eviscerate should be a negligible source of damage.

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