If you are interested in learning more about all legendary effects that are available to Rogue, regardless of spec, you can do so in our Rogue legendary power overview. It is very effective both on single-target and on AOE, and coupled with the talent Blindside you can become quite the powerhouse whenever you and your group need heavy execute damage.
The recipe for crafting this legendary power can be found inside one of the wings of Toughest, Cold heart Interstitial. It synergizes well with our Conduit, Well-Placed Steel, and can be quite potent when you prepare your Shiv windows properly by pooling Energy beforehand.
However, the healing is incredibly minor, and the performance difference too high to justify using it for a bit more self-healing. While you will be engaging in a lot more single-target scenarios inside dungeons and the halls of Toughest, single-target damage is still important to take down the most difficult elites and bosses.
Poisons dealing high damage is also very beneficial if you are forced to kite enemies within Toughest. Essence of Blood fang becomes very powerful whenever you start using Fan of Knives as your Combo Point generator.
It is a solid legendary in all multi-target situations, but lacks a bit of strength against bosses or when fighting elites. However, our openers generally consist of casting Garrote multiple times to ramp up our energy generation, “wasting” a large part of the bonus of this legendary.
Vanishing for DPS is also very unreliable within Toughest, to the point where enemies might reset, and you have to start the fight all over again. It is still very potent in Mythic+ however, since the high Critical Strike Chance allows for consistent Combo Point generation through Seal Fate.
The loot piñata of World of Warcraft content has also made it to Shadow lands. World bosses are one of the fastest ways to get decent loot each weekly reset.
This talent allows the Rogue to skip a step during their opening onslaught, by providing Slice and Dice when Shadow strike strikes a target from Stealth. Outlaw Rogues will also see a familiar friend return in their talent tree.
Dread blades delivers a mighty strike to your enemy, and invokes the memory of the Legion Artifact active by causing combo point generating abilities to fill the Rogue’s combo points while active, but at the similar cost of their health when using these cursed combo points on finishing moves. In this thread, we’re discussing Rogue class changes coming in World of Warcraft: Shadow lands.
I assume since the Pick-Pocket/Crimson Vial thing mentioned in the Class Change post did not show up among the tooltips in the Alpha it is not here yet. However, I wanted to mention it in case it is present, and I am unaware of some aspect I don’t realize to make it work.
I’d like to take this time to discuss my issues on Live and on Alpha regarding Outlaw’s future, particularly regarding Roll the Bones and its gameplay implications. Why I dislike RTB on Live: It feels bad to make a choice between rerolling for better buffs and consuming CP for damage while sacrificing short term DPS, especially when you often have a loose/lose situation if you don’t get the buff you want, and you have now wasted CP on rerolling.
What I think about Alpha’s implementation: The reason that the cooldown feels good to me initially is addition by subtraction: if I don’t have the option to reroll, it feels better to just use my finishers than to hope that I get the right buff on my next roll while the ability is on cooldown. However, considering Alpha’s current design where Restless Blades lowers this cooldown, we will fall into the same trap as before where we are unhappy with the buffs we’ve received, except now there is a significantly higher energy cost, and we can’t reroll our way into better buffs immediately.
I don’t want to be stuck, even for a short time, with a buff that makes me feel bad. How I think we can improve it: Ultimately, I want to avoid lose/lose situations that occur because there are such terrible disparities between buffs.
I think that the easiest way to balance buffs while maintaining the exciting gameplay they can present is to remove RTB from Restless Blades, and separate rolls into two classes, one which significantly alters gameplay and one which offers a small, passive buff. Broadside (+1 CP generation for quicker finishers and faster gameplay) Ruthless Precision (increased Damage on all finishers, more emphasis and oomph factor) Skull and Crossbones (chance to pro extra Dispatch, Between the Eyes and Sinister Strike when they are cast).
Grand Melee (+25% attack speed) Buried Treasure (+6 energy regent) True Bearing (Chance to pro Adrenaline Rush for a short duration) In this topic I will list all the bugs I’ve currently found with Subtlety rogue and will find in the future.
FIXED: 23/04/2021 Issue : Currently SND is gray when engaging in combat with an enemy. When combo points are being generated SND will randomly light up somewhere in the fight.
From this I can conclude when a second ER is being cast, the first buff becomes obsolete and doesn’t work anymore. When I cast a finisher with 2 combo points, the extra damage does NOT get applied and the 2 buff does NOT go away.
HOWEVER, if I do cast a finisher with 3 combo points, BOTH buffs will go away and the extra damage gets applied. Effect : It makes it unclear how many combos points a player should use on a finisher which in turn causes them to lose DPs.
The tooltip is: “Finishing move… deal X damage based on CP … Cooldown is reduced by 1 sec for every combo point you spend. ” Issue : Currently Shadow Vault and Slice and Dice are not reducing Secret Technique’s cooldown.
Cause : Probably Shadow Vault and Slice and Dice not coded to interact with Secret Technique, since they are new abilities to the spec. Damage increased by 20% when you are behind your target, and critical strikes apply Find Weakness for 8 sec.” Issue : Currently when using Backstab from the FRONT and gritting, Find Weakness DOES NOT get applied to the target.
The tooltip, however, implies gritting regardless of position applies Find Weakness to the target. EDIT 13/04/2021 : While leveling a character I noticed Find Weakness was applying when I was gritting with backstab from behind as soon as I got the ability.
Cause : Either the tooltip is wrong and has to be rewritten, or the Find Weakness condition is programmed to the positional requirement, which shouldn’t be the case. The tooltip is: “Punctures your target with a shadow-infused blade for X shadow damage, bypassing armor.
Issue : As with Backstab in point 3, Critical strikes DO NOT apply Find Weakness when used in the FRONT. Cause : Either the tooltip is wrong and has to be rewritten, or the Find Weakness condition is programmed to the positional requirement, which shouldn’t be the case.
As Josephine stated in her reply it’s not caused by getting Find Weakness at level 13 or by having two daggers equipped. This makes me believe the extra damage is the shadow DMG portion, but it’s doing it when Find Weakness is not on the target, which shouldn’t happen.
6: Echoing Reprimand and Secret Technique NEW: 23/06/2021 Issue : Secret Technique is not consuming nor dealing the extra damage form Echoing Reprimand’s combo point buff. Cause: ER is a new ability and Secret Technique is a talent, so maybe their interactions aren’t coded yet.
Effect: Less damage, unclear if Secret Technique is supposed to work with Echoing Reprimand. Effect: Higher damage output, unclear what the intention is with this ability.
Hey Lvltenchar, to potentially help narrow down one possible bug, did you have the LVL 15 talent Weapon master by chance during the double eviscerate because it’s a 15% chance to make Shadow strike and Backstab hit twice, so maybe it’s not working correctly. Build up combo points on a target, drop/finish combat with combo points, open on another target with eviscerate (and therefore it doesn’t have find weakness) and yep you get both the shadow and physical damage w/o find weakness.
I made a new character, and without ever getting into combo thus never applying Find Weakness I was getting the double damage on the first target I hit. EDIT1: Leveled a character, rank 2 Eviscerate is causing it, updated main post.
*Edit to add: The double Disc doesn’t happen on a fresh level 10 Void Elf rogue. While Sub is a bit buggy at the moment, I’d still like to give some initial feedback on the feels.
Slice and Dice : When it initially went away, it didn’t feel so bad since it had lost some value when combo points were moved to the player. In the many patches since though, its absence helped pave the way for Sub turning into a one dimensional stun+eviscerate machine.
Poisons : Like Rupture, this has more rogue flavor than the shadow magic dot+snare from Legion. Shadow Dance : Bumping this back to 1 charge is good news.
While it was convenient to use it all the time for a while there, it kind of cheapened it (and surely lead to damage being nerfed). At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it will be nice to plan ahead for burst rather than just using it on CD since it’s up so often.
Find Weakness : This was one of the defining features of Sub, and it’s nice to have it back baseline. I’ve not tested Sub a lot since it still has issues, but from smacking around random mobs and target dummies a bit, it seems like the rebuff is up all the time.
Shadow strike : This grumble is mostly thematic, but getting good old-fashioned Ambush back (like but did) would further unify the class toolkit. Or mobs facing in that perfect direction to send you off a cliff or fall through the world and disconnect.
Gouge : This was originally taken away due to increased Dance uptime and the de-escalation of the CC arms race that came with pruning. Since Sub is losing a charge of dance, it seems fair to suggest they get Gouge back.
I’m not certain that it would be mathematically optimal, per se, but it would bring back some flavor of using Premeditation for an opener. My initial feedback for Rogue would simply be that SND seems excessive on both Assassination and Subtlety.
RTB feels pretty good, but I agree with some other feedback that it should have no energy cost. I’ll never understand why this ability was gutted and then relegated to a PVP talent as a husk of its former glory.
One of the most fun rotations I’ve ever experienced in this game was waiting for DFA to come off cool down, capping combo points, dropping Sod, and then jumping high in the air before spamming Shadow Dance before I hit the ground to get that perfect activation. It pairs well with Shadow Techniques and to me, it feels like it gives the spec a bit more flow.
The increased duration to 8 and reduction to 1 charge makes it feel a lot more powerful to press and rewards good planning and execution. I agree with Shoe boots and would rather see Death from Above back as an AOE ability instead of Shadow Vault.
I’d love to see Secret Technique become baseline, BUT it’s cooldown not being reduced by Deepening Shadows. As with Sub, I personally like that it adds some depth, but considering how much slower But is, I can also see how it would feel tedious to lots of people.
Perhaps it might be worth considering a rework of the Venom Rush talent, so it causes Envenom to refresh SND, as it did in Mop? I thought to mention Sanguinary Veins in my previous post, but wasn’t sure if that would be stepping on But’s thematic toes too much.
Maybe something like Finality (from Legion) or a revamped version of the Night’s Vengeance trait could work? Assassination: Many rogues that I’ve talked to voice the same opinion, the spec is ‘incredibly boring’.
It relies on maintenance and that’s about it, APM wise the spec plays VERY slow. You run Elaborate planning because it’s wild overpowered compared to the rest of the talent row.
At higher gear levels TB typically overtakes Ex sang, and there’s no real choice in the final talent row. On the one hand we have two major abilities; Shiv (à la Toxic Blade) and Envenom which want short burst windows suggesting a poolconsume play style.
On the other hand, we have 2 (live) and 3 (alpha) maintenance buffs/rebuffs that pull away from that (garrote, rupture, SND). In fact, currently on live it’s recommended to just TB on CD regardless of pooling at all.
Obviously we can’t necessarily use retail logs but for the sake of an example that means the following… Over the course of a 4min patchwork fight there’s roughly 100 mutilates meaning that in executes there’s say 33 of which 13 on average would “pro” ambush generating 26+ combo points. Elaborate planning is simply too strong typically, and I don’t see a “similar” blindside working well unless it’s tuned accordingly.
The spec lacks any remote choice or complexity available to it even though the tools are there for it to work. You should want to pool going into a Shiv (toxic blade) and consuming with an envenom immediately following with a couple mutilates for some real juice cycling through envenom until TB window is over and then immediately back into maintenance.
For this to work though the energy cost of mutilate would have to be adjusted (as well as the DMG component to compensate). Blindside should be returned to the spec similar to the way it was in Won and available baseline such that it’s a rotational changer.
A pro based ability above 35% baseline would really add some depth to the class especially if we’re able to cast mutilates more often. It would skew our Shiv/Envenom windows and provide meaningful complexity as opposed to having just another buff/rebuff to maintain in SND.
The talents in the row should be roughly similar in value though, currently they are not even remotely close. If you analyze sims and logs you can see that Asia rogues spend roughly 35-45% of their time waiting for energy.
Getting TB baseline added to shiv was an amazing change, That’s pruning done right in my opinion. Exsanguinate is a really enjoyable ability, but it’s never going to see daylight if it’s competing against Alacrity.
A better change would be giving us our Aerate Trait “echoing blades” in its place. I spent a bit more time poking dummies, and even without using Dance or Stealth, it wasn’t uncommon to have FW up for almost every Disc via Backstab and Symbols.
While it does fall sometimes off between Symbols, those are good times to refresh Rupture+SND anyway, and building those up will often just reapply FW again. Only with FW in place of Enrage, and Backstab instead of Bloodthirsty to “fish” for props.
Symbols, then, becomes a slightly more complex Rampage, in that you use it to force FW via Backstab before hitting Disc. While this is mechanically sound on its own (Fury is fun and all), it’s essentially the complete opposite of how FW worked before.
If so, maybe it works to have Backstabbed cries extend FW by a few seconds rather than apply it? This could squeeze out some more uptime on a raid boss without turning the spec on its head.
Just want to drop a couple of notes on things which are somewhat small on the surface, but tie into overall feels. Likewise, making Honor Among Thieves baseline in place of the combo part of Shadow Tech would be a positive here too.
Not just to dial back the tunnel vision, but getting combos while off target is one of those dirty tricks that always screamed rogue.” This is true whether sitting in a Frost Nova in PVP or while doing mechanics in Eve. Either bring up the amount or nerf assess down to a max of 20% with master poisoner.
Seems illogical and doomed for failure just like Legion & BFA rogue PVP from an Outlaw/Sub perspective. So, to preface this post, I will say that I am a very “come what may” person with these sorts of things and just play whatever rogue spec fits best for whatever situation and encounter.
I’m sure the most other high-end players of pure DPS classes will share the sentiment of being willing to play whichever spec fits best for an encounter. Slice and Dice: My main question is “Why?” I started raiding in Warlords of Drano where Slice and Dice was made into a passive for 2 specs, and the 3rd spec was removed from the game in the following expansion.
Roll the Bones: I think this is an interesting change, but it very many lives and dies to tuning. In actuality, they’re doing crayfish damage as baseline because of everything else in the spec, and a good roll will let them skyrocket.
This needs to be preserved with the change so that getting bad rolls doesn’t mean you aren’t doing damage. Shadow Dance: While I found the Subtlety Legion rework actually pretty fun (including the DFA combo), I also enjoyed the Won and previous iteration of 1 big Shadow Dance.
A comment on stats: What prompted the change to let haste affect Rogue bleeds? I’m curious to know if certain stats are still being specifically targeted to be good for a spec when designing them.